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I initially met Daisy Deb through the Cosmic Human Design Facebook group, and her posts were always so generous and insightful. I really loved reading everything she posted, and I knew I wanted to invite her to share more on my blog. Interestingly, we both had non-sacral charts in Tropical astrology Human Design (both of our charts said projector), and our charts changed to sacral beings in True Sidereal Human Design (Daisy’s chart changed to generator, and mine to manifesting generator).

Daisy’s interview actually helped me realize how boxed in I started to feel with the projector type. While experiencing burnout, calling myself a projector was exactly what I needed. It was my permission slip to rest. But the more aligned I made my life, projector stopped fitting (and I stopped boxing myself in, too).

I really, really enjoyed this interview with Daisy, and I know you will too!

How (and when) did you get introduced to HD (and/or astrology)?

I discovered Human Design at the beginning of 2019, shortly after my grandmother — my biggest fan — passed away. I’m very much a grounded person, I believe, but somehow, it was impossible to ignore that my grandmother possibly guided me toward Human Design.

I wasn’t really interested in exploring another system that claimed to show me who I am. I’d been into Meyers-Briggs, Strengthsfinder, etc., and it all seemed so complex, along with Human Design. I never resonated with astrology (but I didn’t know about the different calculations and traditions back then), and so I felt reluctant to look into it.

But Human Design kept coming back into my life. Eventually, I decided to schedule a reading with someone, and experiencing that, I suddenly felt intrigued to find out more. It didn’t take me long to discover the benefits of Human Design and how it was divine timing for me to actually start working with it as I was feeling stuck and bored for a long time, trying to find something that could add more structure and direction to my work (I worked as a business and life coach back then).

My first encounters with learning Human Design, after the reading I got, were through Karen Curry Parker (I bought her book, signed up for her membership, and eventually ended up doing some of her courses and the first level of her Human Design Specialist training), and a variety of Human Design practitioners on Instagram whom I resonated with.

I started reading charts for other people around May 2019. Slowly, I moved into practicing Human Design full-time, first and foremost, to understand myself and as a business to support others on their journey.

Later on, about a year in my Human Design experiment, I started listening to and watching some of RA’s (Robert Alan Krakower) teachings, lectures, and materials, and that’s when something started to really feel “off” for the first time.

What was your experience like (with tropical HD/astrology)?

In that second year of experimenting with Human Design, as I was immersing myself more and more into RA’s teachings, I felt this heaviness emerging. It’s hard to describe. I can only compare it to how I felt years ago when I actively explored conspiracy theories and suddenly found myself in a very dark world that left me completely drained and moved me far away from functioning in the real-life world where everyone else was.

That was a huge wake-up call for me back then, and this time, I recognized the red flags sooner. But I was already quite deep into RA’s Rave Cosmology, feeling like utter sh*t because it was mostly all doom and gloom and “no choice, what to do?”

The more I contemplated that and seeing how other people were completely sucked into that, too, preaching a very rigid and dogmatic approach to Human Design, I knew something needed to change. I just didn’t really know what. I felt stuck and frustrated. I was ready to give up on Human Design altogether.

What prompted you to explore a different approach to HD/astrology?

I felt like that many times in the past months. Ready to give up on Human Design. I was constantly moving from deep confusion into profound epiphanies. It all started at the end of December 2020. After contemplating RA’s teachings for a long time, sitting with all those uncomfortable feelings, I handed it over to the Universe. I read a book by Tosha Silver called “It’s Not Your Money,” and I understood that I wasn’t going to be able to “think” my way out of where I was. I needed to surrender and open my mind to new ways of seeing, understanding, etc. and sink into my body more.

That’s when something remarkable happened. And I always have to think about the synchronicity here because it was at the same time the Jupiter Saturn conjunction occurred, around the Winter Solstice.

I discovered that the way Human Design charts were calculated was based on Tropical (Seasonal) astrology. I found that there are many different astrological traditions, both in the West and the East and that they could possibly lead to different outcomes, perspectives, understandings of the sky, and how the cosmos plays a part in our human lives.

I don’t know exactly how it happened, but I found myself googling “True Sidereal Human Design,” and the first thing I saw was Athen Chimenti’s work, who’s a True Sidereal astrologer. Exploring a little bit more, I came across Richard Mason’s YouTube channel that was called “True Sidereal Human Design” back then. He just put out his first video, like, literally a few days before I found his channel. That could not be a coincidence.

Watching that video and joining his Facebook group felt like a relief because it was my way out of that mental loop I was in for so long, now suddenly having different perspectives and ways to look at my Human Design practice. It felt like I could breathe again.

Little did I know that I was embarking on a totally different journey that would prove to be both magical and challenging. But I was ready for it. From the first week I met Richard Mason, I already believed it would change my mind, and I affirmed that by donating to Richard’s cause.

What’s your experience like now with your “new” true sidereal (cosmic) HD chart?

Richard Mason calculated my chart, and I received it back in January, I believe. I have to be honest: when I first laid eyes on my True Sidereal Human Design chart, I was shocked. My mind wasn’t able to accept it. It resisted the chart from the beginning, and it wasn’t ready to let go of the reality I lived in the past two years.

I went from experimenting as a 5/1 emotional Projector with simple-split definition to seeing a 2/4 emotional Generator, quadruple-split definition chart. My mind had a huge challenge accepting the change in type and suddenly going from 5 defined centers (undefined Head/Ajna and Sacral/Root) into eight defined centers, with an undefined Spleen.

I wasn’t sure what to expect, but I definitely didn’t expect this.

And it started from the very beginning: I got these remarks from other Human Design practitioners that I couldn’t be a guide or a coach because I was no longer a Projector but a Generator. You know, these kinds of remarks make you feel icky, like you’re suddenly not (good) enough (anymore).

It got me thinking about why we use type, strategy, authority, and profile to describe ourselves or even introduce ourselves to others familiar with Human Design. Contemplating that in the Cosmic Human Design Facebook group, someone pointed me in the direction of Zeno Dickson’s work, called Zen Human Design. I watched her videos on her YouTube channel, and I felt so much recognition with her work that I prompted myself to become a student of Zen Human Design (unfortunately, Zeno passed away in March 2020, but her ex-husband, Chaitanyo Taschler, still continues her work).

It all made sense. Looking at my True Sidereal Human Design chart through the lens of Zeno’s work changed my whole perspective. It also helped using Richard Rudd’s Gene Keys instead of RA’s Rave I’Ching to contemplate the gate activations. And little by little, my mind was able to move out of the way and make room for my body and soul to speak to me.

I literally felt my Sacral center coming to life. Another process hard to describe, but at a certain point, my mind was able to move out of the way far enough for me to reconnect with parts of myself that I seem to have forgotten about or even suppressed. I really needed to let go of everything I knew about Human Design, what I learned from various teachers, and let my body and soul speak for themselves instead.

How do you use astrology and human design in your own life? What has the impact been?

I understood that the way Human Design is mostly taught these days is that the body graph does all the speaking. Traditional Human Design practitioners, who follow RA’s teachings to the letter, would say that it’s because of the not-self if you don’t resonate with something. But this way, a whole lot of people are being conditioned by their Human Design chart instead of practicing deep listening to what your inner world whispers to you.

That’s mainly because people are struggling to sit with any uncomfortable feeling. We tend to rationalize and think our way through our Human Design experiments instead of actually connecting with our bodies, being in our bodies, and embracing anything that shows up from that place, whether that’s something we like or something we dislike about ourselves.

Ever since I started exploring Zeno Dickson’s work, I’ve been able to detach myself from any chart presented to me and use it as a coaching tool instead. This completely transformed my Human Design practice and even the way I “read” charts for other people.

Human Design is a tool that helps me do the inner work, “shadow work,” if you will. David Hawkins’ consciousness mapping and Richard Rudd’s spectrum of consciousness through the Gene Keys have supported that as well. By shifting my perspective, I remembered many of my inner truths that I seemed to have lost when diving into RA’s teachings. I’m back where I need to be, and it has allowed me to transcend a lot of the shadows I was still attached to, I was still resisting or unable to move through. I can definitely say that, in that regard, RA’s teachings have been useful.

Through doing the inner work myself, I can hold vast amounts of space for other people to do the same. And that’s probably the most significant impact of Human Design on my life currently. As a Virgo Sun, having multiple planets in Virgo, I’m definitely here to serve, and Human Design proved to be an excellent tool to support me on that journey. I love to think that through my own inner work, I can impact others in a way that supports them as well. And that’s more than enough for me.

So, where does astrology come in?

Well, after discovering True Sidereal astrology through the work of Athen Chimenti, it never really let go of me. In the beginning, I was feeling overwhelmed because of the complexity of an astrological chart. Still, I approached it the same way I approached my Human Design experiment from the beginning: one step at a time.

Over the course of — now — five months, I’ve grown to understand the importance of True Sidereal in my life. I could never make sense of Tropical astrology, so I never felt called to look into it. This time, it is different. Another series of synchronicities caused my husband to practice a hobby of astrophotography (he was already doing a lot of nature and scenic photography before that). We ended up having a colossal telescope in our living room. Watching the stars and planets in the sky and exploring True Sidereal astrology came together as True Sidereal astrology is based on the visible sky. (It is sometimes also called “astronomical astrology.”)

At this time, I am actively studying True Sidereal astrology with Isaac Rodriguez through his masterclasses but also through his wonderful Facebook group “Sidereal Revolution,” where a variety of practicing astrologers and astrology students are sharing their experiences, knowledge, insights, etc.

Do you do Astro/HD work professionally? Tell me more about that:

I’m currently working as a life coach using True Sidereal Human Design as a coaching tool to help people align with their true purpose. I offer 1:1 sessions via Zoom (https://www.humandesignflow.com/readings) and have clients all over the world.

I also recently started a study group (https://www.humandesignflow.com/courses/studygroup) for people who want to explore Zeno Dickson’s approach to Human Design (or at least, my personal interpretation of her work, mixed with my own experiences and perspectives).

My approach to Human Design differs from most practitioners and teachers. I use a simplified version of Human Design based on the original revelation that doesn’t involve type, strategy, authority, profile, or any other addition made by RA post-1997. This simple but practical and self-teaching approach, mixed with Richard Rudd’s Gene Keys, proved to be a more (self-)empowering approach, enabling people to move away from the more rigid, dogmatic, and very complex Human Design System as presented through Jovian Archive. It also allows you to read a chart without having to memorize vast amounts of keynotes and descriptions. And above all, it doesn’t categorize people into generalized boxes like type, strategy, authority, and profile. It actually challenges you to practice awareness in your own life, which is the leading practice of Zeno’s approach, instead of engaging in the mental rabbit hole that it eventually became because of all the additions RA made to the original synthesis.

The astrological aspect in my approach is using True Sidereal astrology as a foundation for calculating Human Design charts. At this time, I’m still using Richard Mason’s Cosmic Human Design calculator, but it is my dream to eventually calculate charts myself. I dream about having a journey with people that’s intimate, that I can calculate a chart for them, hand-draw that chart, and then read it together.

For the people who don’t have sufficient financial resources to invest in readings or education, I also offer a lot of my knowledge, share a lot of insights and experiences through my Instagram page (@humandesign.flow) and my Facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/daisydeb), as well as on my website (https://www.humandesignflow.com) and through my Wednesday Writings via e-mail (https://my.humandesignflow.com/writings).

Based on your knowledge/understanding, how would you describe the difference between tropical and true sidereal HD to others who might be new to TSHD?

Tropical astrology is based on the equinoxes and is fixed into the Earth’s seasons, based on the sky approximately 2000 years ago. This caused a problem over time because the sky has changed. Stars are moving, and so we cannot really fixate the sky, like taking a snapshot. Tropical astrology is still using that same snapshot, now 2000 years later. But the sky has changed over time. And although there will still be some truth in Tropical astrology (the meanings of the signs, houses, and the planetary archetypes are still valid today), it is now off by approximately one sign (or approx. 6 hexagrams).

So, when Tropical astrologers talk about the Sun being in Aries like it would be the day that I’m writing this, if you would use an astronomical app like Stellarium and look at the actual sky, you’ll see that the sun pops up in Pisces instead. That triggered the question: why would we still use Tropical astrology if that is not what the actual sky shows us today?

True Sidereal astrology, on the other hand, is based on the visible sky. What you see in the sky is what you get. Or, if you turn that around, what you see in the astrological chart is actually what shows up in the sky. You can check that yourself, as Stellarium is a free application for your computer or phone to look at the sky and see if the planets are indeed where they should be according to your chart.

At this point, there are two kinds of True Sidereal astrology that I know of: True Sidereal based on the IAU boundaries that were set in the 1930s and continued to be used by NASA, scientists, and astronomers, and [the second is] Athen Chimenti’s midpoint calculations, which seem to be more relevant for practicing astrology. Both these interpretations of the sky are used in astrology today.

The IAU boundaries mostly seemed to be used to actually map the 88 constellations in the sky. 13 of them show up on the ecliptic, which is the path the Sun takes throughout the year, passing through every sign of the zodiac. Compared to Tropical astrology, which divides the zodiac into 12 equal parts of 30 degrees each, leaving out the 13th sign (Ophiuchus), True Sidereal uses the 13 signs that show up on the ecliptic. Instead of dividing those into equal parts, they consider the actual sizes of how the constellations show up on the ecliptic. In that regard, Virgo is a much bigger sign than Libra, e.g., because it takes longer for the sun to move through the constellation of Virgo on the ecliptic than it takes to move through Libra.

The IAU boundaries differ from Athen Chimenti’s midpoint calculations in the sizes of the signs on the ecliptic. The IAU boundaries are based on what the IAU believed to be the beginning and the end of a constellation as they appear in the sky. E.g., in the IAU, Ophiuchus is much larger than Scorpio because it was measured and mapped in that way. The mapping consists of grouping all the stars of a particular constellation together with all the stars that show up in the proximity of that constellation. They wanted to map all the stars and not just the constellational ones connected, forming the shapes that we’ve grown to know.

Athen Chimenti believes that, when it comes to astrology, because the IAU is meant for astronomy, those boundaries create discrepancies when looking at the ecliptic through software like Stellarium, and when it comes to chart reading accuracy. For astrology and how constellations show up on the ecliptic, we don’t actually need to take into account all the stars in the proximity of that constellation (or within the boundaries of the IAU measurements); we need to take into account those stars that show up on the ecliptic that are part of the constellation.

So, he took the last star of one constellation, which still shows up within a 30 degrees range from the ecliptic and the first star of the next constellation. He measured the distance between those stars and took the middle of that, creating a midpoint boundary between those two constellations on the ecliptic. You’ll see that Ophiuchus and Scorpio are actually about the same size (Scorpio shows up a tiny little bit bigger).

Furthermore, Athen Chimenti’s midpoints also take into account a 3 degrees blend. The last 3 degrees of one constellation within the zodiac band and the first 3 degrees of the following constellation are actually blends of both signs. So, if one would have the Sun in 2 degrees Libra, that person will probably recognize themselves in both the meanings of Libra Sun and Virgo Sun because it’s on the cusp, within that 3 degrees blend.

Athen Chimenti was able to develop more accurate astrological readings using these midpoints and 3 degrees blend, compared to when he was still using the IAU boundaries. And that kind of lived experience, for me, is critical rather than just going with the science because the science also needs to be mixed with lived experience for it to hold value, at least, that’s what I believe.

Of course, astrology only plays a certain part when it comes to Human Design, mainly to calculate charts. Some people use astrology with Human Design, and as it was presented in RA’s early publications as well. Later on, the practice of astrology with Human Design seemed to be brought back to just the calculation.

When I discovered Human Design, it was often said to me that I didn’t need any prior knowledge of the synthesis’ modalities because Human Design would offer me everything I needed to know through the synthesis. But later on, I discovered the importance of honoring the ancient modalities that eventually created that synthesis, and I always tend to go back to those modalities to go with my Human Design practice rather than Human Design alone.

But of course, it all comes down to what resonates with you. That is a very personal journey that no one can fill in or decide for you. I can only say that for me, at this time, I’m very resonant with True Sidereal astrology and, therefore, True Sidereal Human Design as well. Up to you to discover what resonates with you. And that’s only possible by engaging in the experiment.

What would you tell people who have been experimenting with their tropical HD chart for some time and feel like it really represents them?

I believe that the purpose of Human Design is to help us remember who we truly are. Tropical astrology seems to still have enough truth in it for people to resonate. In many theories that emerged from the True Sidereal experiment, Tropical Human Design appears to represent a more human, Earthly, and masculine, yang version of ourselves. In contrast, Sidereal Human Design (whether True or Vedic or another form of Western Sidereal) seems to move us into a more feminine, yin, inner journey of the soul, like I like to call it.

Sometimes, Tropical is referred to as our 3D reality, while Sidereal and True Sidereal are pathways into 4D and 5D. Others call the True Sidereal experience the cause and Tropical the effect. Tropical, in that sense, is who we perceive ourselves to be (and how the world perceives us or how we show up in the world), and True Sidereal the journey inward toward embracing all of who we are, challenging us into doing shadow work.

I don’t know what the truth is.

It could be everything I just mentioned. Or it could be none of the above.

For me, that’s not important. I’m not that invested in finding theories to validate my experiences. I can only say that True Sidereal (both astrology and Human Design) resonates with me deeply, so that’s the path I follow. And I keep an open mind to all possibilities because that’s the only way I can honor and respect other people’s journeys as well. Who am I to dictate how that journey should look like, right?

The whole purpose of my practicing Human Design is to move away from those kinds of rigid and dogmatic approaches and move into something more helpful, empowering me and potentially empowering others as well.

Do you think cosmic and tropical HD can coexist?

Why not?

If it couldn’t coexist, it wouldn’t exist in the first place.

It’s not my journey, but I definitely honor the journey if that’s yours. And even though I say it’s not my journey, I still tend to go back to my Tropical charts whenever I feel called to. It doesn’t happen that often anymore, but it’s still a possibility if it proves to be helpful and empowering in a way.

Add additional thoughts here (I may have follow-up Qs):

My philosophy is that any system we use, no matter what it is (and systems are rediscovered and created all the time), should be supporting us instead of trapping us.

My journey with Human Design has definitely been fascinating, calling out old beliefs and patterns that needed to be corrected or let go of, moving me into new perspectives all the time.

I tend to look at my journey as something fluid, ever-changing, ever-challenging me to move into a higher expression of who I truly am.

It’s like a dance — a dance with life.

It begins from the moment we’re born (or even before that) until the day we die. Life takes the lead, and I follow. And when I’m actually able to be that open to life, it proves to be truly magical, even though bad things sometimes happen. But it’s always to help me.

Life happens for us, right? Not to us.

And Human Design, astrology, Gene Keys, or whatever you choose, can be that tool (or those tools) that supports you in remembering that, in the end, we’re all connected, we’re part of life, part of that same whole (pure consciousness). And the only thing that’s there to do is dance and rest, and then dance some more, and deeply enjoy it.

More reading on Human Design: